S5 Bonus: How to Successfully Divorce a Narcissist with Kerrie Droban

How to Divorce a Narcissist with Kerrie Droban

INTRO: Ending a marriage can be a painful, grueling process. Bring narcissism into the mix and this process will only become more challenging, exhausting, and emotionally draining. Regardless of who initiates the divorce, your narcissistic partner will likely try to make the split as difficult as possible. We don't have laws to protect victims from these predators. They're literally con artists. You are their project. You're like an addiction to them. Their focus is on getting one over on you and making themselves look good in the courts eyes. It's a battle. It's a battle, and you have to be prepared to go into battle. That's why today we have a very special guest to provide essential advice when it comes to divorcing a person with a cluster B personality disorder. Her name is Kerrie Droban, an award winning true crime author and podcaster, attorney and television journalist. You won't want to miss this interview because she's not holding anything back. And if you are going through a divorce or know somebody who is, this is a must listen.

Welcome to ex-wives, undercover liars, cheaters, and love icons. I'm Amber and I'm Athena. First we told our story, and now we're sharing all of your craziest and most heart wrenching stories of love gone wrong. Sometimes we laugh and sometimes we cry. But more importantly, we stand together. All right, girl, you ready to do this? Let's do it. The views, information or opinions expressed on our show by our guests are solely the views of those individuals involved, and by no means represent absolute facts. Opinions expressed by the host and guests may change at any time. Our podcast and YouTube show may at times cover sensitive topics including but not limited to suicide, abuse, violence, listener and viewer discretion is advised.

HOST: First of all, I am so excited to have you on because you have this nice mix of criminal and family attorney knowledge. And so I wanted to really just start with, how did you get into that? And obviously I know why, but you can tell our, our listeners, how do you follow that path? Because that's something else.

KERRIE: Well. So I started in criminal law. I started as a prosecutor. So I have it from both sides now. I started as a prosecutor and got all my trial experience as a prosecutor and then got into defense work and as a criminal defense attorney really got into a lot of pathology because I'm always looking for rehabilitation, mitigation, leniency, things like that. And then I got into capital work, which is death penalty work, where you're really looking at how did they get to be where they are? Like, why do they do the things they do? And I started to become really fascinated by that and by being able to identify and I mean realizing when you can identify the pathology in a person, you can actually help the victim person litigate that because you're, you know, what's going to make them tick. You know why they do the things they do. So it was a really useful tool. And I got into divorce like family law, because I had one of my criminal clients wanting to get a divorce. And I thought, well, I mean, so I kind of learned how to be a divorce lawyer. From that background or from that launching pad. And of course, getting into the kind of divorce law that I got into. I, of course, came from it not only from criminal law, but from personal experience and thought, you know, the best thing that I can do right now is to help other people avoid what I went through, use the knowledge that I have used the foundation and the background in law to be able to really educate people in an area of law that a lot of people really don't give a lot of credence to. They don't actually consider psychological abuse a crime. It absolutely is. And that's the hard part about these guys. A lot of times it is psychological or financial or all the other types of abuses, everything but hitting in physical abuse a lot of times, yeah, it's really I mean, I call it the silent crime because it's a, it's a crime without a crime scene. There's the silent victim because the victim oftentimes doesn't even realize they are a victim of a crime until a lot of times it's too late. And it's also really sort of a slow death. You know, it's a it's a death of the soul, and it's a death sometimes a literal death because people don't get out. There's like suicide rates very high. You know, it's a really just a horrific, crime. And what frustrates me from the lawyer point of view is it's not recognized. Like we don't have laws to protect victims from these predators. And I mean, even I mean, you take it I don't even want to say this is extreme, but this is definitely a facet of it which is stalking. You know, stalking is a facet of the psychological abuse of the predator and even those laws. I mean, it has taken forever for states to get on board and actually, you know, consider it a crime and, you know, make it a felony. I mean, it's just it's it's unbelievable to me how slow that process has been. So it's been incredibly frustrating. And that's sort of my mission now is to educate the courts on that, inform them this is the pathology, this is how you identify it and how you get out.

HOST: Yes. So I think that's one of the most Eye-Opening things. When you go through it, you never expect that you're going to go through it. And then when you enter into a divorce situation and you know, children are involved and family court, that's where from my personal experience and the other co-host, we couldn't believe how a knowledgeable lawyers, judges, police officers were in. I mean, sociopathy, I suppose, or, you know, just cluster B personality disorders. Um, they're so good at, uh, masking themselves. They look great in court. And then, I mean, I learned the hard ways. It was hard for me to keep a poker face and not be discouraged and frustrated. Well, this nonsense was happening. Were you a lawyer before you married? Who you kind of deem your sociopath?

KERRIE: That's the thing that I really want to, you know, emphasize here is that it runs every demographic. And that's the really striking and horrifying thing about it is you can be the smartest, the most intelligent person out there and still get entrenched in these relationships and not realize it. That's the horror of it, is that you're in there. And as a lawyer, litigating my own divorces, which I do not recommend, but but incredibly, and this is another aside. Look, I couldn't get a colleague of mine to take my case and. Yeah, I couldn't get employer to help me when I needed help, even though I knew exactly how to do it. I knew the pathology behind it. I wanted the help, I didn't, I didn't have it, I couldn't get it. And so that was really eye opening for me and really striking that here I am, somebody who is knowledgeable about the law, that I could be blindsided, that I could be so blindsided, you know, and it really it gives you a lot of pause and a lot of perspective. And you're like, wow, you know, if if it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. And it was just as devastating for me, even though I knew the landscape and could navigate it. I'm like, wow, you know, you have to get over that. Oh my God, this is happening to me. And these are my colleagues who now know it's happening to me. So it's, you know, that whole shame element that's involved in it, you know, like, oh my God, how do I how do I extricate myself out of this and get to the other side of it? And so I think that's it can be very powerful when you're, you're on the other side looking back and saying, let me help you through that.

HOST: I know that's kind of why we wanted to do this podcast too, is we've learned so much the hard way. Like you probably too. And so any tidbits of knowledge and experience that we can provide is we're all about that. And so is there any 1 or 2 things that were the biggest eye opening as you're getting your divorce from your husband? That was like, oh my gosh, like, how could this, you know, for for me? And I think we discuss is he would turn in fake documents, my ex-husband. And so just standing there with your mouth on the ground, like how, how how are they accepting this? And I look crazy because they're just like, oh, lady, of course they're probably from you. And I know you're saying they're fake, but I have no way to prove that they're fake. But other than here's my phone. And then I remember them saying, well, don't turn in your phone because you're gonna expose all your like, what was it? I think it was my phone records. And the the guy was like, well, then you're exposing like, that's public information. You know what? Like all your phone records in there. And so I'm like, what? How do I defend myself then if. Yeah, if that was happening, you know, I don't know if there was something like that that happened with you that where you're just like, oh my gosh, this is insane.

KERRIE: Yeah, well, I mean, I think I felt very destabilized the entire time I was going through it because it was sort of like that. You're blindsided. You can't quite believe this is happening to you. What I realized and, you know, and I'm sure your listeners that have gone through this, as your life becomes evidence, like you have to start recording everything, like documenting everything, recording everything, you know, knowing that if you understand the pathology of it. So I went through this, this thing where I was like, okay, it's a spectrum disorder, right? So narcissism is a spectrum disorder. Psychopathy is a spectrum disorder. Sociopathy. I mean, they don't even use the the words anymore because you're identifying the behavior of something more than giving it a label. And so I think for me that was a big eye opener. For me it's like not don't label it, just educate and describe the behavior. Because once you understand that every, you know, psychopathic sociopath is a narcissist, but not every narcissist is a psychopath, a sociopath, then you sort of understand that, okay, let's get let's figure out what the leverage is because you have to go in with a strategy. You have to go in anticipating a defense. You have to go in with leverage. Like, what is the number one thing that a narcissist hates, absolutely hates about everything else is they hate to be unmasked. They hate to feel like, you know, everybody's perceiving them a different way. So if you know that going in, that's leverage. Like how can you expose them and educate the court on that. And you're right. I mean, things like, like, you know, they're con artists, they're literally con artists. They will come in with, you know, things. I mean, this is what they obsess about. It always amaze me that they have the kind of time that they had, you know, like, you are their project. You're like an addiction to them. And so, yeah, they're going to, you know, it doesn't matter if they have another girlfriend. Usually they do. Someone lined up in the wings, you know, it doesn't matter. Their focus is on getting one over on you and making themselves look good in the court size. And so it's it's a constant, um, it's a battle. It's a battle. And you have to be prepared to go into battle. So that's that was one of the things that was really kind of striking in my cases. Yeah. I mean, I went in thinking that they would be honest. And you don't realize how many lies are going to get thrown out there. I think that was one of those things. And it was interesting.

HOST: And now that you mentioned, like going into battle, I remember having a conversation with one of the ex-wives and I have a PR background. And so when we used to send our top execs in for media training or an interview for, you know, some magazine or whatever, we'd always give them worst case scenario questions like, what are those? And it was prep and I was like, gosh dang it, we could do that in court. So what is the biggest angle that they're going to go after us? Like she's scorned ex-wives. She's jealous. She's like, I wrote down this list of everything that he was going to come after me if I could predict, like get in his brain of what was his angle going to be so that I could prepare a response and not get blindsided because after falling flat on our face the first time, then you learn really quick like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, this is insanity.

KERRIE: Yeah. No, that's a really good point. You want to go on the offense because I think so often and and myself included, you go on the defense. You know, where you're you're reacting to every outrageous thing that they're doing. And and that is literally gasoline to the narcissist. Right? I mean they they want that. They're used to that dynamic. So my my big advice is change the dynamic the dynamic. You know, change it, make it to where they don't even know. It's like a dog chasing your tail. They don't even know which like which angle, which direction to go anymore because you're becoming this wall. You're becoming this, this obstacle, this barrier. And that's really empowering not only for the the person in going through it. I would rather call him a survivor than victim, but the person going through it because they're not used to that response. So, you know, what you said is preparing a response. Yes. Anticipating their defenses, anticipating what they're going to come after you with because they're going to use your weakest point as leverage. And so you want to do the same thing back, right? So I always ask my clients like, what's the one thing they want? They want kids or money. You know, many of them it could be both. But you know, they want their their goal, their mission is to topple you, to take you down with them and to make themselves look great in the end. Right. You're the crazy one. They're on the crazy train. You're the crazy one. I mean, that's that's the constant, you know, response coming out of their mouth. And they want to look good in the court size, so they will pummel you with all kinds of motions and, you know, things that you you don't even have time really to respond to. So I think the key there is anticipate, strategize, go on the offense. You know, have no other weak points are and use it against them. You know. And the thing with them social media right where you have to be really, really careful. I mean, I think a lot of the tendency is, is to go into hiding because that's sort of the way that we've lived in those dangerous relationships, which is to isolate, be alone, don't expose yourself. But, you know, if you if you go on the offense and you use the tools that he's going to use or she's going to use, you know, I have to be careful not to say just man or woman, because it really can be both, but you have to to know what their hot buttons are. You know, what their you know what they're going to use against you. And and use it back.

HOST: One of the things I mean, I would say most people well, I don't know, I can't assume, but I've never been to the court system until I got divorced. I've never gotten in trouble. I didn't know what to expect. So do you lay it all out in the very beginning? Like, you know, we turn in all our evidence and then they turn in theirs. And that I didn't know. Like they get to see my evidence before. And so can you explain how that works? Because I am I remember the other wife going, well, we have to turn ours in. And he gets to see it so that he can respond with his. And and it's like, but but that's not fair. I, I know because because he's going to come up with something fake or whatever to my, you know, angle on this. But anyways, I'll let you.

KERRIE: Yeah. Well I mean, it is frustrating because in the, you know, in the legal system, I mean, this is one of the things that I wish that somehow the courts would, would change. But I mean, it's 100% discovery in Arizona where I practice, it's 100% disclosure state. So, you know, you can't hide the ball. There's no trial by ambush. There's, you know, everything that you want to use in court. You have to disclose. So when I when I get a case or, you know, get a client for the first time, I, I literally will walk them through. This is the strategy you disclose only what you're going to use at trial. So don't disclose everything you know. I mean, if you're going to use it as evidence at trial and you have a hearing coming up, usually have ten days ahead of that hearing that you have to disclose every. 30 days ahead of time. So, you know, be judicious in how you're disclosing information because you're right. It can be used against you. It can be used against the the victim. So, you know, because they're not going to follow the rules. And that's a given, you know, and I tell people that right off the bat, they're not following the rules. They're going to mince over words. When they get a court order. They're going to find a way around the court order. They're going to find a way to either, you know, if something is vague, they're going to find a way to manipulate it. The best thing that you can do in litigating these cases is use the rules of evidence to your advantage. So so that's one thing. Don't disclose like months and months and months in advance, you know, wait until you're going to use it and warn the person ahead of time, like warn the client ahead of time saying, you know, this is what's going to the can you anticipate what he's going to do with this information? Because that's the strategy that we have to follow and keep it. You know, the other thing is keep it defined like very, very focused. So I usually will give clients tools. Sometimes I give them scripts. And I say right now you're in litigation mode. You can only respond with three sentences. So you want to keep it brief? You want to keep it informative. You want to give away nothing. Do not volunteer any information that can be used against you. You want to become a gray rock. So, I mean, it's a good strategy. Never have a conversation with somebody on the phone because you can't, you know, you can't memorialize.

So everything has to be in writing. I mean, I encourage people to communicate by email exclusively, but oftentimes they don't because it's easy to communicate by text and they do it by text. But text messages oftentimes can get, you know, you either have to do screenshots of them. You can't get the entire conversation. It's it can become problematic in court. So I always encourage email so you can show the whole thread of the conversation. Usually when a narcissist is conversing, they're going to give you paragraphs and pages of information that's irrelevant to the case. And the tendency of the the victim is to react to everything. And then you get these long diatribes going back. And so I always tell people, don't do that from the moment that you're served, the moment that you file now, everything is evidence. Everything is litigation. So be careful with everything that you say.

HOST: I just wanted my text messages that I remember going through that and they would either get thrown out like I don't have the whole text string. And so you're like, but I, I screenshot or it's not in order. So the judge would kind of just throw certain things out. I don't know if you've noticed that too. Or, or he would just send over a text for evidence, but it was completely out of context. So I think you're right. With this email you can it's all together. Whereas text messages really can be misconstrued and rearranged and and pulled out of context and everything. The other thing I was going to ask, because you start getting into that about recording. So I think anyone in this space realizes, because we keep saying it over and over, like you have like every single thing has to be documented. And so because literally it's a he said, she said, and you're going to look like a fool, you know, if you can't back up certain things, unfortunately, it's just kind of how it is. But we get crazy and start recording and then certain states. I mean, gosh, one of my other Co has she did that in her first go around with our ex-husband in court, and she had him recorded saying I faked cancer. Well turns out when she went to turn it in the lawyer's like, yeah, no, I cannot turn this in. So. What are some of those things about, like gathering your evidence? What's a no go and what is like the best route in order to collect evidence?

KERRIE: I mean, it really depends on the particular state, like you said, what's going to be accepted and what isn't. What I always recommend is and it's it's really tedious. This litigation is tedious, but you have to get in that mindset because the person you're fighting against is tedious. So I always recommend that if you have a conversation, I mean, let's say it's even a drop off your exchanging your child and something happens at that exchange if you can't have a witness with you, because I usually suggest people take a witness, you know, have somebody that you can then haul into court and have them testify or, you know, document something. That's one way of documenting having a witness. If you can't get a witness as soon as you possibly can follow up in an email, say at the exchange tonight, this and this happened, it's my understanding that blah, blah, blah happened. Okay. So you're recording it time sensitive, right? This happened. Don't wait 24. Don't wait 48 hours. Don't wait a week later like you want to record it. You want to memorialize it because chances are he's going to respond. So by responding or reacting, you're going to get affirmation and confirmation that that happened. Something happened. Okay. So and that's the best evidence. I mean, if your state doesn't allow recording and a lot of courts are getting away from that, they don't want that because it just sets it up. For now, you're going to be recording each other, you know, indefinitely, forever. And, you know, the zoom created a whole host of issues that way, too, where we're parents would have communication with their children on zoom and they would record it. You know, I mean, I wish that we were able to enter every recording because honestly, that is the best evidence. And there have been many cases that I've won because we've had a recording that said the opposite, you know, so depending on on your state and how you litigate, I mean, is it better to ask for forgiveness than permission? I don't know, I mean, it depends how serious the violation is. You know, if if somebody is, you know, I mean, I've had situations where somebody actually recorded someone punching their child. You know, I mean, yeah. Were they not supposed to record it? Probably. But it's the best evidence. And it went to, you know, police reports and it went to other things. So so you just have to kind of gauge it in the moment, you know, am I going to get in trouble for this? Yeah. You might get an objection, but at least you had it. Here's another strategy. Lawyers do this all the time, where you have a piece of evidence that you know is going to get objected to. I know I'm going to get a lot of comments on this where, you know, it's going to get objected to, but you're showing it, offering it the other side objects. But at least the judge knows, hey, there's something out there. There's something that they want to get in. They can't get it in. It's it's saying something. So there's there's all kinds of strategies involved in that. But yeah, it's it's very tricky. I think the, the biggest thing to be aware of is that you're going to have to be on guard. You have to be on guard during this kind of litigation.

HOST: Yeah. Oh, I like that because you're kind of just putting a little. A little kind of something in their mind like, hmm, something's going on. I may not be able to hear it, but something they must have. Something pretty big. Yeah. Um, what about reactive abuse? So one of our guests recently, she was abused, and she was talking about getting a restraining order, and they went to, you know, trial over it. She wanted to get a one year restraining order. Her ex brought in not very good text messages and things from her that didn't sound good, but it was kind of part of that reactive abuse. And it seems like the courts don't really understand that. And it basically got dropped. Like, you seem just as bad as him. We're just going to call this a wash. Have you any advice on on that when I mean, even happened to me too. I've sent some pretty scathing text messages, and it is pretty horrifying to go into court. And they're reading them out loud and you're like, oh, I said, yeah, I said that. Oh my gosh. You know, like, I sound horrible right now for people who don't know the whole context.

KERRIE: Yeah. Well and that that is really I mean, that is abuse. I mean, because you're, you're so used to being challenged every your realities challenge your perception of reality, every everything, everything is challenged. And so you're angry. I mean, rightfully so. And you're you're lashing back out at the person who's, you know, sort of like, what's the first harmful event, right? It's like you're almost self-defense is what it is. But if you don't have the initial, the thing that started it, that's why I was telling people, you know it. You have to. You have to practice restraint and response. It's the response because you do. You get in trouble when you react. It's not. This is not something the courts are going to accept. They don't understand it. You look as bad, sometimes worse, than the person who's actually made the abuse, which is even more frustrating because you just want to throw up your hands and, you know, give up. But it's it's a tactic. I mean, and that's why I think the more that you understand the kind of disorder, the personality disorder that you're dealing with, the more rational you become. So you're becoming the and that's the that is the image that you want to present to the court, which is you're the rational one. He's the crazy one. Look what he's doing. And so the more and that's what I'm saying, like if you have leverage so you know that the narcissist, um, is deathly afraid of other people's perception of him. So if you have anything that is going to make him look bad, any witness, any piece of paper, any infraction of if you know, somebody suffered a bankruptcy, you know, several years prior, you know, something that's going to make them look like crap. That's the leverage. The other thing that I would strongly say is marriage counseling therapy, Reunification counseling does not work with a narcissistic personality disorder. It just doesn't. There is no cure. There is no rehabilitation. There is no getting better. This is who they are. This is their personality. So I mean, that's something that the courts don't understand either. You know, I mean, they're always trying to reunite children and parent who is harming them, abusing them. So it's it's just a it's it's a vicious, um, cycle, I guess. But it's also something that if you get a lawyer who understands that pathology that those personality disorders. I mean, this is like you have somebody who is, um, you know, the only thing that probably would help in those cases is trying to get a psych evaluation. But even then, these guys, these narcissist, psychopath sociopaths, they don't go to mental health professionals. You don't have a long history of anything that is wrong with them. So if you can get a court to order it based on crazy statements, you're one step ahead. The other thing that I would strongly encourage people to look for is any type of writing. Has sounds really crazy, but lots of narcissists, lots of psychopaths, lots of sociopaths will write. They'll have journals, they'll have a manifesto, they'll have some kind of documentation. That is their thoughts, their thoughts not only on the person they're married to, but their thoughts about how you know what's going on in their own mind. I mean, I've had this in countless cases, and it's fascinating to me. And it's usually not known to the victim, but it's it's their form of communication. It's their form of getting something out. And so I've had that in at least I would say at least half of my cases. So if there is something like that, that's gold for the litigation. Wow. I mean that I think you're actually onto something because one of our, um, someone who had submitted a story, she was like, I found. Almost like a diary of all of the abuse and everything that he wrote, which I was like, really? They do that, but how would you get your hands on that? I mean, I think I'm not sure how she found it, but how would you even know that existed, like you said? Like, yeah. Are they going to keep it close to their chest and not reveal that? Or is it something that maybe it's just in your house that you came upon or. I don't know, sometimes. I mean, it's it is fascinating to me. I have had clients that actually will produce the journal. I mean, I mean, it's fascinating. So sometimes it's something that they start online and they, you know, keep a file on a computer somewhere. I mean, it's not that clandestine, which is really interesting. And I just mention this because it it has been a fascinating legal tool because it's the best evidence and for whatever reason, they're recording it. So it will arise sometimes in um, and this is actually very common as well in narcissistic relationships where there is either a threat of suicide. Attempted suicide. And it's usually done as a pity play.

HOST: Oh, my. I mean, it was so normalized after a while that I stopped being scared. But, you know, in the beginning I was horrified. But five years down the road, I'm like, wait, are you going to kill yourself today? Oh, okay. Like, here we go, here we go.

KERRIE: You know, it's amazing. I mean, it's it's another form of manipulation. It's another way to get somebody to pity them, to say, oh my gosh, they must be going through something really horrible. It usually happens when they feel threatened of being abandoned, you know, so you've had a fight or an engagement or something. And the victim says, okay, I'm leaving this time. I'm really leaving this time I'm leaving too, you know? So it's it follows a pattern. So somebody that does that, that has threatened suicide oftentimes will have some kind of manifesto emails, string, um, something that is recording that process. And so I just throw that out there because it is a tool that has been enormously useful in a lot of my litigation, and I find it fascinating. And it was true in my cases as well. Um, so it's yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think it's really, really important. I tell people all the time, get a therapist, get a lawyer, get out. I mean, that's that's going to be your survival.

HOST: We all turn into FBI agents at some point when we have to, and we're trying to get evidence and everything. But what are those, like, non illegal basic information or or don't don't open their email. Don't get into their phone, you know without permission or their email. Those those things I'm sure maybe you've had claims that are like I got this out of his email and they're like well did you have access to that or did he give you your passcode or how'd that happen? You know?

KERRIE: Yeah. Well, I mean, and a lot of times, I mean, I, I do I do need to ask, like, how did you get Ahold of this? You know, in cases of journals, for example, like how did you get Ahold of like, I don't I don't advocate that people go and hack into their, you know, their spouses computers, right? I mean, let's face it, I mean, most, most narcissists or people that are in those kinds of relationships, there will be multiple passwords. I mean, I think I'm speaking a universal thing here, right? Emails or password protected phones or password protected bank accounts or password protected, I mean, everything. So what I can say is this if you are on and I and I hear this a lot, if you're being shut up, for example from finances, you don't receive any of the household bills. You're you get an allowance. Chances are, I mean, that's the kind of control that you're in, you're dealing with. Right. So financial abuse, financial control in those situations as the spouse of mean we're you know, Arizona's a community property state. The spouse is entitled to go to the bank and ask for what are my accounts? What am I on, you know, and if she's not on any of the accounts, then the attorney has the subpoena power. So that's, you know, one legal avenue where you can subpoena records. So if I, if a client says to me, listen, I think that my spouse is hiding money or I know that they might have an account in XYZ, but I can't really access it. Well, at that point, there are lots of discovery tools that a lawyer has, right? We can do a deposition, we can do a subpoena, we can do, uh, requests for discovery, um, interrogatories, things like that, where we could use the legal tools to get the information that we want. Now, in many cases, I go right to the subpoena because I'm not going to get answers that I want. Am I going to get the truth? I'm going to get a lot of Na, right. Not applicable, not available. Other spouse has it, blah blah blah, you know. But these are all the the avenues that are available to me to get access to that. So so that's one way I advocate that, you know, my clients protect. Themselves. So you know, if they need to get orders or protection, if they need to put valuable things into a safe or a bank vault, I suggest they do that. I tell them before they even file to gather documents that they need, because once they file, they're going to have a preliminary injunction, which is going to stop them from being able to do that. Um, so, you know, so those are some of the legal avenues, you know, recording, documenting, gathering witnesses, corralling the people on your side. But a lot of times, you know, as you probably know, this is that you don't have a lot of people in your corner, you don't have a big support network. So, you know, because you haven't told anybody that this is going on. Right? So you're doing this in isolation and you really feel like there's not anybody in your corner. I think it's really, really important. I tell people all the time, get a therapist, get a lawyer, get out. Because that's that's going to be your survival.

HOST: I think a lot of people don't even know that subpoena was an option. I didn't I didn't know that that was even on the table. So it's always those the things you didn't even know. So how are you supposed to go in, you know, armed with. You know, stuff that's going to be ultimately successful in court when you don't even know. You know, usually it's just like, this is my first go round and it's with someone that's not your average Joe. He's manipulative and conniving and charming. And I mean, we used to joke like, I mean, do you have a thing with a judge? Is he, like, sleeping with a judge or something? Like, she would look at us like we were just these just awful ex-wives. They were just out for revenge. And, you know, it's it's really hurtful to, like, feel like there's some bias, but I'm sure it happens because they're so good at that.

KERRIE: It is. Yeah. I mean, and that's part of why I think it's really important to have an attorney that understands that pathology, because otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time and money and heartache going down avenues that are going to be useless. You know, where if the attorney says, hey, I think we need a reunification therapist. Yeah. No, why? You know.

HOST: Right, right. Well, that's that's the other thing. Like, I mean, obviously we would want everyone to go to you, but you're in Arizona, so what would someone who's on the East Coast or something, and they need a divorce attorney. What would be something to look out for in their credentials? And is there something that would help you identify a lawyer, like a divorce lawyer that actually is going to know you know, who and what these types of people are because. Right? I mean, I don't know, what do you put in your tagline? Like I deal with con artists, scammers, I don't know, like what is the what is the terminology that they might use? It's a very common type. I mean, unfortunately a common relationship.

KERRIE: So I guess a couple of things I would, I would want to know from my lawyer is have they ever dealt with high conflict cases? Number one okay. Because all of these are high conflict. Somebody that does only uncontested divorces, probably not for you. Somebody that has a experience or background with domestic violence because they're going to be somebody really understands psychological abuse. They know that, you know, 99% of domestic violence cases are not physical, and so they're not going to judge you. And, you know, so that that comes about in a conversation. So you want to vet your lawyer, right. So you sit with them. It's worth the whatever hundreds of dollars it is to have a consultation, because those are the kinds of questions you need to ask, like how many cases have you litigated that involved domestic violence? What's your trial experience? Because 99% of these cases go to trial. You want somebody that is a litigator. What other areas of law have they practiced in? And so, you know, if they're a criminal lawyer. Awesome. You know, if they're if they've done any other area and a lot of them will do personal injury, family law. You know, is it is this a boutique law firm? And then the other thing, I mean, not to disparage this, but I really do think that you need somebody with experience. And so you probably don't want to hire that lawyer straight out of law school, or he's got like, you know, I mean, not to disparage again. I mean, there's always exceptions, but these are really difficult cases. They're complex. They go on for years sometimes. So you also want an attorney that you trust that is going to have your back no matter what. That is going to be in it for the long haul. So you want to look at their record. I mean, have they been with the law firm for a period of time because the case is likely going to last more than a year and you don't want to be switching lawyers in the middle? So it's those are some of the things that I would just suggest that listeners do if they're in that situation. The other number one big, big thing, do not represent yourself.

HOST: I was just going to say that I not yeah, a friend of mine just went through it and she she's like, I didn't have an option. I didn't have the money I thought I knew I was doing. But again, we don't we don't you know, you do need someone experience. Coming from my experience going through it, there's no way had we not had a lawyer, it would have blown up in our face and we didn't know what, you know, paperwork to turn in. We didn't know the protocols. We didn't know anything. So I 100% I'm on board with I don't don't do it on your own if you can.

KERRIE: The other thing that I would just want to mention on that, because I hear that a lot where people say, I don't have the money, I don't have the money. Well, okay, so you're in a marriage and presumably. I mean, you get income from him. Maybe your dual income family. I always tell people this because I think it's a it's a misperception. This is this is joint money when you're going in for a divorce. And I know, at least in Arizona, even though it's a community property state, you are allowed to dip into the joint funds to litigate a divorce. It's not something that is off limits. It's not his money. And your money at that point. It's this is attorney's fees. And the court would prefer it if you had a lawyer. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, it's it's just too hard to navigate. So I hear that a lot that and then the other thing that I would just say is, you know, in situations where there are really disparate incomes and maybe the victim does not have access to any funds, the lawyer can petition the court for attorney's fees to, to make, you know, they can make a motion where the other side could be equal. You want you both to be represented, and that's not fair. If he has access to all the money and you know.

HOST: Oh, that's so good to know.

KERRIE: Yeah, I mean there are definitely options. Again, another thing that a lawyer who practices in this area would know. It's just another form of abuse. If somebody comes in and says, I can't afford a lawyer, so I'm going to have to represent myself, we already know how that's going. You know, I mean, you just you you might as well just hand over everything because there's no there's not a, there's not a chance. And and I know that, I mean, I represented myself because nobody would take my case, but but I am a lawyer. Yes, I know for yourself. You know, it's the emotional stuff that was difficult for me. Not the actual fundamental of like, you know, what do I do to navigate this landscape? Because, I mean, you're right. Nobody's I mean, you would hope that nobody's going to need this or wind up in litigation because it's painful and tragic and, you know, it's traumatic, which is why I say get a therapist.

HOST: Yes, because your lawyer cannot be your therapist, right? Yeah. I mean, it's just you don't know until, you know, until you you go through it. I love this. I feel like I need to have you come back on the show, because there's probably still more we can talk about, because I just find this so incredibly helpful and fascinating and useful. I wish I knew what you're telling me when I went through it. Um, but the last thing I wanted to talk about is some of the stuff in the news right now. So, um, I sent you some information about this TikTok woman. She basically blasted out. She went viral about her ex-husband and kind of like what people do when they come on our podcast and sharing their experience, which we have a right to do, you know. But if you're going through a divorce, can that complicate things, like what would be your advice? I know another friend of mine, she she started a podcast and she was not. Her divorce was not finalized. So going into court, his lawyer was like trying to almost do like a gag order type thing to shut down the podcast and have her sign something. And I, I just wonder, you know, we kind of tell our people that come on the podcast, obviously, we anonymize their names and anonymize the husband and whatnot, but. Just to be on the safe side. We're like, we want to make sure you're out of the relationship. Not living with him, still divorced him. Everything's, you know, buttoned up. What would be your take on, you know, blasting and telling your story before the divorce is finalized? Look at that in court. The do's and don'ts on what you think you know, because it is kind of a trend. Like people are going on TikTok every other day and like, let me tell you my story. And they're not really anonymizing necessarily. And it's making it pretty easy to find who the person that they're talking about is. Anyways, I'll let you.

KERRIE: Yeah, I think it's way in if you're not divorced yet. Even if you're starting this process, I would strongly advise against it because again, the focus is to get out, right. You want to get out and you don't want to lose everything, and you're already going to be put on a, you know, your head is going to be on a chopping block and all eyes are on you. And so you have to be able to come out of that unscathed, come out of that in a good place. And, you know, and that's why I say Get a therapist. Get a lawyer and get out. Right. So the the social media, the broadcasting, all of that is I mean, it's understandable. You're getting out your feelings, you're angry. This has happened to you, and now you're taking back your power. And I am all for that. But there's a time for it. And when you're in litigation, there's so much that can be used against you so much. Like every post that you put out there, every, you know, TikTok, every everything becomes evidence and there's no way to retract it. So once it's out in cyberspace, it's fair game. And, you know, now it's it's going to I mean, there really isn't any good that comes of it. I mean, as I'm sure that, you know, some people have seen I mean, they get stopped, sued, used in court and it's another form of abuse if you are not out of that relationship. And when I say out of it, I mean have it in your rear rear window so that you are not reacting. And that's what a lot of those posts are, you know, their reactions to the abuse that you've endured. And I think that, you know. Nine times out of ten, if that is in your rear view rear window, and then you're posting about it and talking about it, you're coming from a place of strength rather than a place of terror. And I think that's that's what I see, because I think it's, I mean, I, I applaud women, you know, men who've been in these relationships. I applaud them coming forward, owning their power, standing in their truth. All of that is very good, positive things. But to go on social media to blast the other person is not edifying yourself, and it's not edifying your case. It's better suited in a therapist office. Or write it like write it out and save it for when you're when it's in your rear view mirror, you know, then you get and you might you might feel differently in two years. Three years. And the other comment I just want to say is in in most of these cases, there are children. Yes. And the children are the casualties in these divorces always. And they continue to be that. And so I don't think that you can emphasize that enough that they're already going through this. They're going through this hell. They have seen their mom or their dad be the victim of this abuse. They go through it in a divorce, and now they're going to be going through it in a public arena. Yeah. And I know and I think people kind of forget about that sometimes.

HOST: And to piggyback on that too, when it's so fresh and new and you do kind of just want to barf out everything that's on your mind on social media or on a podcast. It's more it is reactive and you have to start thinking is the reason that I'm sharing because I want to make them look bad? Or am I sharing it from a place of healing like you mentioned? And I want to teach other women, you know, about the red flags or you know, the healing side of it. And what I learned, and passing on your knowledge of what I've learned more so than I want him to know that I'm talking and I'm telling the whole world that he's this, that and the other thing, and you know what I mean? There's a little bit of a difference. You know, when I did it, I remember blasting out on social media like I'm married a cheater and then regretting it immediately because now, now everyone's in your business and they're like, oh, I'm turning to Facebook because it's like E! News Weekly going on, like, oh, what's going on with Amber and her marriage? And then also I'm feeling really like, oh God, I feel so stupid. Like, why did I do that? And I don't know, I'm sure family court judges, sometimes they see it all day, every day. And there is that probably he said, she said, I'm sick of the bickering back and forth and they probably get so tired of it. So the minute you put social media and that kind of stuff in there, probably like, no go, I'm over this, this is not cool.

KERRIE: Well, I think the important thing is, I mean, you're wanting to present, uh, you want to present the opposite image to the court that your spouse is presenting. And so the image that you want to present is somebody who who's got it together, even though you've been horribly abused, you are the rightful victim here, you know, and I think it's you're right. I mean, it's not we're not not about revenge. It's about getting to a place where you can actually be of service to somebody, you know, to be able to help. And my story was pretty awful, too. And I think that the way that I can give back and fight back is to make sure that I can share all of the tools and skills that I learned so that other people in that situation aren't going to follow suit. So I think that when you blast out in social media, you're discrediting your own story. Yeah. Oh, that's so well-spoken and well said. Because it's hard. It's hard.

HOST:  I'm a hothead. I'm sure a lot of people are, too. And you just kind of want to. Or I want people to know what I went through. But, yeah, I write it, write it down, see your therapist, blab it out. It's out there. And when you are ready, come on the show, do your story. Do it in a respectful way because it's not really about any one particular person. It's it's the story itself and the learning moments we can take away from it. So it's just part of the healing process, I think. And you're absolutely right. I love what you said about that. It's not necessarily about the person, it's about the wound.

KERRIE: Because yes, psychological abuse is a deep, deep wound. And if it's not addressed, you know, deep, it's you're going to repeat it. And that's the thing. Like I've had repeat clients, they get involved in the next abusive relationship because they haven't healed what really and truly is the wound. So, you know, you can put another face, another mask on, another predator and it's going to be the same thing. So I mean, another reason not to go out and blast the person. You know, you're just giving more credence to that person and letting them attack you again.

HOST: Any last words of things? And I'll, you know, wrap this up.

KERRIE: Yeah. I mean, I guess that the last thing I would say, the reason I say get out is because this personality disorder, they don't change. They can't be cured. They don't change. They're not rehabilitated. The only thing that can change is you. And that's, you know, that's the the saving grace. That's the empowerment of it.

HOST: Yeah. Oh, couldn't agree more. I think we all stay because they they're going to change and they're so sorry. And we're very forgiving people by nature. They choose those kind of people. And so that's the one thing that they're banking on, is that you're going to forgive them over and over and over. And so when you get it in your head that they aren't going to change, it makes it easier to close that door all the way, instead of leaving that crack open for them to kind of weasel their way back in. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh. Love it. Well, thank you so much.

KERRIE:

Thank you for having me.

HOST: I love it. I love this conversation. I could probably ask you questions for three hours long, so if you're interested, I would love to have you back.

KERRIE: Yeah. No, I love talking about this because I really do feel like it's. It's such a topic that's near and dear to my heart. And I think there's a lot to be, um, you know, a lot to be informed about.

HOST: If you want to hear more of Carrie. It just so happens that she launched her own podcast recently called Crime Stands Still. Now we'll link all of her info in our show notes, but please be sure to go check out her website and go give her new podcast Some love. And once again, if you like what you're hearing, please leave us a five star review and make sure to join our private Facebook group for even more juicy info. You can also find us on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and Twitter. And of course, you can always visit our site at Ex-Wives undercover.com.